Floppyshop 2/Floppyshop - 2.zip/Floppyshop - 2.iso/diskmags/0022-3.564/dmg-0125/301.txt

Text File | 1997-04-16 | 32KB | 731 lines

Info-Atari16 Digest         Wed, 29 May 91       Volume 91 : Issue 301

Today's Topics:
                        Atari 540ST Questions
                    Atari HD hostadapters/drivers.
                             Atari Mortis
                          Atari TT (2 msgs)
        CTL/ALT/DEL doesn't work - memory upgrade peculiarity
                DCUDEMO.ARC and KDSK_CGF Questions????
             Legal action against STrabble game. (2 msgs)
                          Mac fonts to GDOS
                   Mega STe Question (or Problems)
                      PD fonts for Calamus reqd
                   Questions on Desktop/Environment
                      Reliable archiver/compress
                       scc control on atari-tt
                          STFormat & Stuff.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 15:25:43 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.e
 du!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!midway!msuinfo!kira![e-mail]
 (Count Zero ... Interrupt)
Subject: Atari 540ST Questions
To: [e-mail]

An important note:

A 520ST is by definition an older machine.  IT DOES NOT HAVE A DRIVE
BUILT IN.  If someone is selling you a 520ST find out if it is an STf
(f for FLOPPY).  Those are newer and have the built in drive.

Some of the last 520STf's (before they were discontinued) used 1040
motherboards.  So, to upgrade to 1meg cost only price of a few chips
(a friend did it for $30 in about 3hrs.  Takes some soldering though.
I DON'T HAVE DETAILS, so don't ask me how he did it.)

Good Luck with your ST.  I love mine.... So, glad I dumped my Compaq
Luggable...
--
  |||   David W. Schultz                                           |||
  |||   uunet[!rutgers!mailrus]!frith!schultzd                     |||
 / | \  Work Phone: [phone]                                / | \
/  |  \ "All I see Pornographitti, All I hear Pornographitti..." /  |  \

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 14:28:12 GMT
From:
 munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au![e-mail]
 (Matthew Baker)
Subject: Atari HD hostadapters/drivers.
To: [e-mail]

Greetings all!

I'm looking for some information on the available host adapters for the ST,
and also driver s/w.

Currently I am running a Megafile 30 adapter board and an NEC D3142
drive.  Someone I know is looking for an RLL controller to talk to an RLL
CDC wren, and I want to sell my controller to this person.

This places me in a difficult position: I need to find a new controller.

My current unit took me 3 months and untold hassles with certain Oz atari
techs, and I don't really want to try this again.

An well, I have my eyes on another 3142, with which I hope to add a minix
filesystem to my machine.

Thus, I am seeking a hostadapter which will run RLL : the only possibilites
seem to me to be:

ICD + Adaptec 4000A.

Supra. (is this ACSI <-> RLL or ACSI <-> SCSI???)

Berkley Microsystems. (again, to what?? RLL? SCSI?)

Are there other hostadapters available??
Are they any good??
Costs??

Please, being hereunder in Oz, can I have some addresses for the
_manufacturer_ or a dealer that will export here?

With regards to driver s/w, I understand that the Atari HDI will not support
more than one drive per LUN. - how about the Supra/ICD/Berkley drivers?

How about Claus' driver (CBHD) - cost, language, etc...


Many thanks all.

Matthew.

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 14:12:19 GMT
From: noao!ncar!midway!clout!chinet![e-mail] (Stephen Jacobs)
Subject: Atari Mortis
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (CHU
 JEFFREY) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Stephen Jacobs) writes:
>>>
>>>Sure enough, in selected applications,
>>>the TT beats the pants off anything based on an Intel chip.  In a lot of
>>>other applications, it runs pretty much even with a 25 MHz 80486.  And the
>>>price is in the 80386 range.
>>>
>>
>>Not to flame you or anything, but I seriously doubt all three claims.  Perhaps
>>you could provide some numbers to substantiate them?
>
>I doubt it too, there was a demo of the TT here by an ATARI club, the
>representative said the TT 68030 was equal to a 386-20 machine and only
>2 MIPS, I found this hard to believe since there was so much talk of it,
>I still think it does close to 8MIPS, but since there is so much people
>disagreeing with the performance of the TT, I don't know what the real
>MIPS on it.  Also does anyone know how many MFLOPS the TT does?  Like I
>said the TT is not equivalent to the i486 and probably not the new 386-40.
>The 386-33 is running 7.92 MIPS and the i486-25 is 11.1 MIPS.
>THIS IS NOT A FLAME (I am a ATARIAN and probably always will be)
>
>
>                                                       Jeff

Some particulars.  Dynacadd ($1000 list, but available for about $550) handles
drawings as well as Auto CAD.  On a TT with a math coprocessor, it does an
arbitrary rotation of the semi-standard space shuttle drawing in essentially
human reaction time (not quite, but too fast to time conveniently).  Last I
heard, a '486 running Auto CAD took about 2 seconds.  Pagestream and Calamus
run at practical speeds on the TT; they are highly usable (I use Pagestream on
a Mega, myself, and while it's highly functional, some text operations are
slower than I'd like).  The comparable programs for Intel chips, whatever their
merits, just don't seem to get used.  Similarly, because of the Atari-MIDI
connection, there are good heavy-duty MIDI programs for the TT; in the
'mainstream', the word seems to be that for MIDI you get a Mac.

Pricing: we just saw a quote of $2100 for a stripped TT.  That's '386 pricing.
Similarly, the full configuration prices for the TT seem to be in the low
$3000 range.  Same comment.

Routine applications: my big routine application is chromatographic data
processing.  Big disk files going through once.  Anything faster than a '386
25 runs i/o bound on this one, so all fast machines look the same.  Any big
math operation that has an inner loop that takes up residence in on-chip cache
(and that's a lot of the market for cycles right there) is going to turn over
amazing numbers of MIPS on any fast processor.  The relative amazingness is
going to depend on machine cycles per instruction (slight advantage to the '486
I believe) and efficiency of data addressing (slight advantage to the '030).

About that 2 MIPS for a 32 MHz '030 box: the TT needs some configuring to work
at its best.  This is new for Atari machines, but is old hat for other micros
(and minis).  Run a program with bad locality of addressing entirely out of
RAM shared with video, maybe you can make it run that slowly.  Unfortunately,
unless someone tells the system not to, that's the RAM the program will use.
And locality just wasn't the issue in 68000 programming that it is in 68030
programming, so lots of existing programs aren't ideal for the TT.  Which comes
to the old lament that the only real benchmark is YOUR application.

The BIG problem with the TT (and all machines Atari) is that the VARIETY of
applications just isn't out there.  The big applications are covered, but not
with a whole lot of different choices.  And Atari doesn't make it easy to
develop for their newer machines (although they try to make up for it with
their help once an application is developed).

I hate to argue in public.  I'd have done this in email, but I think maybe this
discussion might be worth keeping going.
                                            Steve

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 15:10:35 GMT
From: richsun![e-mail] (Chuck Menard)
Subject: Atari TT
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Julian F.
 Reschke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dave Litchman)
 says:
>>
>>Ok, I'm sure we've all SEEN the TT, at shows and such, but does anyone
>>HAVE one yet?
>>
>Yes. Since September 1990. Most professional developers in Germany have one.

 Yes!  I waited 5 months - ordered it December 1, 1990.  I was the first one
 to order and the first to receive (probably one of the first to receive here
 in the Chicago area - non developer machine that is) the TT at the dealer
 near me.  I'm starting to see new software appear for the TT also.  Such as:
 Lattice C TT, Calamus TT, Pagestream (?) TT, Devpac Assembler TT, etc....
 By the way, did you see my posting to this newsgroup from a few days ago?
 Here's the info:

How's this: TT030, 4M, 50M HD, with Color Monitor - $2680
Subtract about $500 without Color Monitor.  I believe that you can also
get the 2M TT030 for just under $2000.  A 4M model includes 2M of ST
RAM on the motherboard plus another daughterboard with 2 more Meg.  One
can expand this ST RAM daughterboard to 10 M.  The fast TT RAM includes
another daughterboard with 1M Sims to add another 4M to make a TT030
8M model.  Remove the 1M Sims from this TT daughterboard and replace
them with 4M Sims to expand TT RAM to 16M.  Result total RAM = 10 +
16 = 26M.  I was told today from a dealer here in the Chicago area that
these RAM expansion boards will be ready for sale around mid June here.

CUL,
Chuck

P.S. Software from my ST is running many times faster on the TT - to be
     expected!  :)

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 15:14:36 GMT
From: mcsun!hp4nl!phigate!prle!prles2!knor![e-mail] (John Janssen)
Subject: Atari TT
To: [e-mail]

Here in the Netherlands, you can just buy a TT at your atari dealer.
They do (did?) have them in stock.


--
John Janssen        Check the email address in the header, as this
J.v.Deventerstr.1   may have been filled in wrong by the system.
Venlo Holland
[phone]       Reply to: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 1991 19:13 N
From: "Frits Dumortier/R.U.G." <[e-mail]>
Subject: CTL/ALT/DEL doesn't work - memory upgrade peculiarity
To: [e-mail]

Dear colleagues,

I have an Atari Mega 1, upgraded to 2.5Mb, and running TOS 1.2.
Does someone have an explanation for the following oddities :

1) CTL/ALT/DEL does not work on it. At the lab we have an old
   Atari ST1040, running TOS 1.0, and an Atari Mega 1, running
   TOS 1.4. Both systems react normally at the CTL/ALT/DEL
   (system reset)

2) Since the memory upgrade (XTRA RAM) the flight simulator
   BOMBER starts up with no sound; apart from that the game
   behaves normally, and the sound even returns when you start
   flying.

advTHANKSance,

Frits Dumortier
FD@BGERUG51

Laboratorium Regeltechniek
Rijksuniversiteit Gent
Belgium

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 91 13:13 EST
From: "Bob Schaedel - Canisius College Computer Center -
 [e-mail]"
Subject: DCUDEMO.ARC and KDSK_CGF Questions????
To: [e-mail]

    A couple of quick questions about two items I got from atari.archive.

    First: Has anyone else had problems unarcing DCUDEMO.ARC.  I keep
           getting the error message about you need a different version
           of arc.  I'm running 5.21, I tried to down load 6.02 but
           when I run this version all it does is take me back to GEM.
           Nothing unarced.

    Second: I just tried out the disk drive accelerator KDSK_CFG and it
            lets you change the disk seek rate from 2ms to 12ms.  Does
            anyone know of any problems with using this program, will
            it damage the drive in the long run???
            Also what is the default seek rate on an atari DSDD drive?

                                        Thanks in advance
                                             BobS

     [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 11:52:00 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!stl!crosfield![e-mail] (john hartridge)
Subject: Legal action against STrabble game.
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Neil Forsyth) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>> ... if PD stuff competed really
>>>strongly with commercial products then companies would go out of business.
>>
>>So what?  I think if someone is willing to give you something BETTER for
>>FREE, then they shouldn't be punished.  The problem is too many people like
>
>It could hurt some companies every bit as much as piracy, which is the illegal
>version of free software. Say a company comes out with a new and very
>innovative game for the ST in the UK. Some other group produce a clone,
>a BETTER clone and start distributing it via the net. Soon the world will have
>the PD version before some have even heard of the commercial one. When the
>commercial version turns up reviewers would be saying "Not as good as the PD
>version" and so no sale. Does that sound extreme? Maybe, but that is what
>worries companies and that is what they are trying to prevent.
>

Surely any company that tries to produce and sell software that is not as
good as something an individual working on at home can produce and give
away does not deserve to remain in business.  A software company does not
deserve to do well (ie make a lot of money) out of what must be a very
inferior product.

Although I have not personally seen the STrabble game in question, it
does not sound like a particularly difficult game to code (more difficult
getting the dictionary together I would have thought), and yet it is being
sold for the same price as some of the more complex games (anything involving
a lot of high speed graphics, say).

I therefore see the PD world as not only providing the "little" utilities
that are not worth writing yourself, and not worth paying money for, but
also for keeping the "Big" software houses "on their toes" and ensure
that their latest "masterpiece" is actually worth the money that they are
asking for it.

(What a rant !!!! Sorry about that)



--
*****************************************************************************
*  John Hartridge  Crosfield Electronics Ltd  Hemel Hempstead UK            *
*  Ext 3402        Tel:- [phone]        Fax:- [phone]           *
*****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 19:54:34 GMT
From: haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu![e-mail] (David M. Baggett)
Subject: Legal action against STrabble game.
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (john hartridge)
 writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Neil Forsyth) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>So what?  I think if someone is willing to give you something BETTER for
>>>FREE, then they shouldn't be punished. [...]
>>
>>It could hurt some companies every bit as much as piracy, which is the illegal
>>version of free software. [...]
>
>Surely any company that tries to produce and sell software that is not as
>good as something an individual working on at home can produce and give
>away does not deserve to remain in business.  A software company does not
>deserve to do well (ie make a lot of money) out of what must be a very
>inferior product.

The more that games programming moves into the realm of higher level
languages and away from the realm of arcane assembly language voodoo
(heh-heh), the more you will see "individuals working at home"
producing games that give the professional houses a run for their money.

I strongly suspect that in the next few years we will see many more
games written by former "mere hobbyists" that are of professional or
near-professional quality.  The main thing that separates commercial
games from those done by amateurs at this point is art.  If you get two
friends working together for fun on a PD game, one a programmer and one
an artist, you can get amazing results that rival the professional
games in quality.  Don't think for a minute that algorithms to move
shapes around the screen quickly are "secrets."  There are already
several examples of Shareware and PD games for the ST that "have the
technology."  Have a look at LLamatron or Nova.

Of course the professional houses will always have the edge in
extremely complex games like flight simulators, Ultima N+1, etc.
simply because games like that require huge amounts of data.  But games
in the "shoot everything that moves" and "ninja chop-socky warriors
part 19:  revenge of Foo" genres come down to basic straight-ahead game
mechanics and glitzy art.

>Although I have not personally seen the STrabble game in question, it
>does not sound like a particularly difficult game to code (more difficult
>getting the dictionary together I would have thought), and yet it is being
>sold for the same price as some of the more complex games (anything involving
>a lot of high speed graphics, say).

Scrabble is QUITE difficult to do well.  Not as hard as chess or go
perhaps, but then there's quite a bit of literature written on those.
Making an intelligent Scrabble opponent has been the subject of at
least one PhD dissertation.  Add to that the difficulty of just getting
the dictionary of words into the program in a space-efficient manner,
and you've got quite a challenging project.

>I therefore see the PD world as not only providing the "little" utilities
>that are not worth writing yourself, and not worth paying money for, but
>also for keeping the "Big" software houses "on their toes" and ensure
>that their latest "masterpiece" is actually worth the money that they are
>asking for it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing a game that rivals
professional games in quality.  The problem comes when you cause the
professional software houses to lose sales on their own products
because you copied them.  That's the main issue here -- that STrabble
performs all the functions of a commercial Scrabble playing program
(and quite brilliantly, I might add) and therefore steals sales from
the people who bought the rights to produce the official version.  If
STrabble were a game only _similar_ to Scrabble, then Spears would just
be out of luck, but then STrabble probably wouldn't hurt Spears' sales
if it weren't an implementation of the famous board game.

Like Neil, I think that Spears have every legal right to ask Warwick to
stop distributing the game.  (Note that I said _legal_ right.)  However,
it IS an unfortunate trend.  It makes me unhappy to see someone who
is just trying to provide quality software to the ST community essentially
for free getting raked over the coals for it.  On the other hand, however,
if I were Spears and saw that my sales were being hurt after I'd shelled
out the bucks to write the legitimate version, I'd probably feel that
trying to stop distribution of the shareware version were my only
recourse.

If Scrabble were a game no one cared about any more (like Pacman), I'm
sure this wouldn't even be an issue.  The problem comes when a
shareware author copies a game that still has sales potential.  The big
bombshell in this area is of course Tetris.  It's a simple concept that
is unbelievably easy to implement.   Easier, even, than Pacman.  Since
it's so easy, it's been copied all across creation.  But this does
indeed affect sales of the official versions, and sure enough, Spectrum
Holobyte (supposedly) attempted to kill all the shareware versions of
Tetris for the Amiga.  (Perhaps an Amiga owner will correct me if it
wasn't Spectrum Holobyte.)

To see things from the other side, ponder this:  How would you feel if
you'd come up with the idea for Tetris, written the game and put it out
there (commercially), only to come across equally good PD rip-offs of
YOUR game idea?

Copyrights and patents are intended to protect intellectual property.
The fact that the laws are only severely enforced when someone else is
getting hurt by an infringement is a virtue that allows people to have
an ancient (but fun) game like Pacman or Robotron on their ST's even
after there's no commercial potential for it.  Who would write Pacman
for the ST if it could only be released commercially?  It just wouldn't
sell.

This whole legal mess should be taken VERY seriously by PD/Shareware
authors.  Whereas shareware and PD started out as a vehicle for hobbyists
to release anything they wanted to, it has now become a threat to big
business.  Shareware authors should realize they're now walking through
a legal mine field when they infringe on others' copyrights.

Dave Baggett
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 91 14:28:21 WET DST
From: "Ian McCall (Scorpion)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mac fonts to GDOS
To: [e-mail]

If whoever wants to convert Mac fonts to GDOS emails them to me, I'll
uncompress the files for him, re-arc and UUE encode them, and then they
can use some other package to change the to GDOS. The catch? I collect
fonts too, so when they've done they have to email them back to me in
GDOS format.


Deal?
        Ian McCall ([e-mail]1)

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 14:05:38 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia
 .edu!ira.uka.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de![e-mail]
 (Claus Brod)
Subject: Mega STe Question (or Problems)
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Redmond English) writes:

> On my Ste, when I boot off the hard drive without a floppy, it's ONLY
> the floppy LED that stays on.  The motor goes off by itself.

After a few minutes, right.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2,                  Things. Take. Time.
D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany                 (Piet Hein)
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 91 10:24:00 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia
 .edu!ira.uka.de!smurf!artcom0!hb.maus.de!k2.maus.de!Christoph_Bregulla@arizona.
 edu (Christoph Bregulla)
Subject: PD fonts for Calamus reqd
To: [e-mail]

I've got PD-fonts for Calamus here. Interested ?

Ciao
 Christoph

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 14:20:01 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!fa
 uern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!faui09![e-mail] (Thorsten
 Zoerner)
Subject: Questions on Desktop/Environment
To: [e-mail]

Question on Environment:

I am actually writing a program, that shall read some Variables
out of the environment. But I reckognized something very strange:
Desktop overgives the first called program the environment:

PATH=\0      (\0 means Nul-Char)
C:\\\0       (\\ means Backslash)
\0\0
trash...

Now I can't guess, what that second String could mean. It is *not*
dependent on the starting-directory. Maybe it shall be the Boot-
Directory ? But I load AUTO-Prgs. and DESKTOP.INF from Disk A: !!

That is also not the MS-DOS-Standard, as there after the twice-Nul-
Bytes the starting-directory should be overgiven, and before only
correct Definitions (including a '=').

Question on Accessories under Dektop:

Is there any way to reckognize from out of an Accessory if the
aktual process is the Desktop (when receiving an acc_open) ?
I want to write a program, that opens automatically a window on
the Desktop to display some things; but that shall not happen
in other programs. (Thats no problem in TOS-programs, cause you
don't happen to get an acc_open)

   Perhaps some kind person has an idea and tells me about it ?

Thanks, little TOM
----
Thorsten Zoerner, Neuweiherstr.36, D-8523 BD
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 91 18:03:00 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia
 .edu!ira.uka.de!smurf!artcom0!hb.maus.de!do.maus.de![e-mail]
 (Martin Koehling)
Subject: Reliable archiver/compress
To: [e-mail]

Juergen Lock nox @ jelal.north.de:
<[e-mail]>

>and i first had similar problems. the reason was a bug in Turbo C:
>it didn't compile things like
>
>int x=30000;
>y=foo[x];
>
>(where foo is an int * or something, i.e. anything `bigger' than a
>char *), properly. (made it something like `move (a0,d0.w),d1', if
>you know what i mean...)
>
> to `fix', i had to cast virtually everything inside [] to long's,
>to make it use `move (a0,d0.l),d1' like it should. so for the line
>above that would mean
>
>y=foo[(long) x]; .
>
> hope this helps,
>        Juergen
>
>PS: to be fair, i don't know if the bug still is in TC's latest
>version (i only have 1.1), but if yes, at least you now know how
>to make the thing compile a working zoo. :-)

The bug was fixed in Turbo C version 2.00.
It wasn't really a bug but a "design restriction" - it made programs both
smaller and faster (it's even mentioned somewhere in the manual!).
The new compiler uses only 16 bits for array addressing if and only if it is
sure that the array addressed is smaller than 32 KBytes.
Otherwise all 32 bits are used...
Note that this is _not_ mentioned in the new manual; but it was one of the
first things I tried out when I got my 2.00 update... :-)

MfG,
    Martin

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 91 11:24:15 GMT
From: mcsun!hp4nl!titan![e-mail] (e4ct22)
Subject: scc control on atari-tt
To: [e-mail]

We have got some problems with programming the SCC-chip on the
Atari-TT. We tried to programm it via DMA-SCC registers but it
didn't work. Who knows what we have to do with these registers\
or what the good method is of programming both the DMA-SCC registers
or the SCC directly.

B. van Schie
M. Koning

Hogeschool Alkmaar, the Netherlands


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 May 91 18:00 GMT
From: "Searching......Seek and Destroy!" <[e-mail]>
Subject: STFormat & Stuff.
To: INFO-ATARI16 <@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk:[e-mail]>

        Firstly I'd like to reply to comments I've seen in the last Info-Atari16
regarding STFormat magazine. It is true that from their front cover one could
easily led into thinking that they were soley a games mag, and for the first
fifty or so pages inside there's no a lot to suggest otherwise. However, tucked
away towards the back of STFormat magazine are some very useful sections on most
types of applications and also a whole section of PD software. I _much_ prefer
it to ST User these days, there self righteous preaching has worn a little thin
since the cover disk virus.
        For those who wish to contact STFormat magazine by email, the address is
listed below. They welcome the submission of copy by this means:
        10012.2571::compuserve.com
or for those in the UK, without internet (like me):
        cbs%uk.ac.nsfnet-relay::com.compuserve::10012.2571.

        While we are on the subject of email, I have a deatailed guide on
sending email from JANET through various gateways, so if anyone wants a copy
just mail me and I'll send it down.


        Now to my second point. Several PD libraries are advertising a disk
which has on it a second atari ST manual or summit like that. Does anyone know
where I can get hold of this by FTP?



        While I'm at it, I may as well get a third point in. I'm starting a
seriously orientated Atari ST user group based in the UK, I post the information
below.

Thanks,
        Lee.





********************************************************************************
To all Atari ST users:

Do you use your ST for serious applications (ie occaisionally do anything other
than play games)? If so the I'm trying to get together a user group of similarly
minded people. I have about a dozen people already on the list and I expect more
soon.
I am trying to form an Atari ST user group for those who use their machine for
serious uses. It is not simply a mailing list where you'll get 50 junk mail
messages per day, but a list of contacts with whom you can compare interests,
and swap ideas and PD software with like minded people. What I belive really
makes this different from things like atarst-l is that many people on it don't
subscribe to such lists because they don't want loads of junk mail, they would
however I'm sure welcome relevent mail to them on topics they find useful and
interesting.
If you want to have your name added to the list please mail me, with your name,
email address and a vague outline of your interests in the Atari field.


                 Lee Bohan.


PS  Please pass on this message to as many people as possible.
********************************************************************************

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/                                       /                                      /
/  Lee Bohan,                           /   [e-mail]                /
/  Goodricke College,                   /   INTERNET send via nsfnet relay     /
/  University Of York,                  /   BITNET send via earn relay         /
/  Heslington, York,                    /                                      /
/  England,                             ////////////////////////////////////////
/  YO1 5DD.                             /
/                                       /
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